ClubStarterKit - where do we go?

Wow, what a year. Not exactly what I'd expected. Before I dive into where we are now, let me preface this post by saying I have NOT forgotten ClubStarterKit! Although I was not the original author, I feel like it's my baby. I can't just forget about it. Not going to happen.

 

You might be quick to point out that I have done virtually nothing since the v3 beta 1 release. This, my friends, was a big mistake. Not v3 beta 1, which I will discuss later in this post, but the fact that I was not clear in what I hope to get out of the project. I do take the blame on the lack of development. I'm not going to sit here and tell you I have neglected to look at the code in a while. This is partially due to my work life (I have to make some money.. know that I have 2 jobs) and my personal endeavors (as I am a high school student with more to do than dedicate all my time to ClubStarterKit). No one is perfect. But I do sincerely apologize to the ClubStarterKit community for my lack of communication.

 

My hopes from the project

When I started the project, I knew that there was a void. ClubStarterKit v1 was an obvious success because of the idea of sample-driven learning. It did a lot of things that people needed. Now, I really wanted to bring CSK to the level of open source. With this, I opened up the door for contributors. This is an area that I found fairly problematic. We did get some amazing contributions, such as the CMS and the RSVP system. Without these core contributions, I would have spent more time building the features rather than tracking down bugs or expanding other CSK features. Trust me, building out a feature for CSK is not easy.

Essentially I had hoped for the ClubStarterKit to be a community effort where there would be multiple core developers. In my idea of "core developer", I seem to be the only one. To me, CSK seems more like a sample that goes through active development.

It is my hope to not be a nag about this, but come on CSK community. You guys do some amazing stuff. Then you demand something out of CSK without contributing? I just don't see how this whole thing can work out like this. I'm not a free contractor. I don't even ask for donations!

I have been asked by one member of the community to forget my role in CSK and pass it along to another developer. Guess what, no one stepped up. Interesting. Guess it looks like I'm still in, win or lose.

 

What's the deal with the inactivity?

Like I said, there are many factors to this. Mostly, I am starting to regret hard-coding SubSonic into CSK. I now know, after completely hard-coding this stuff in, that I should have allowed external DALs that people wanted. Not everybody like SubSonic and it's query tool. Some people like NHibernate, LINQtoSQL, XML, whatever. I seriously screwed up. My fault, guys. I've learned, let's move on.

A big reason for inactivity was time. I just couldn't devote a lot of time on CSK like I used to. Luckily, this is about to change for me. Just know that I'm going to have more time to work on CSK. Period.

 

What's next?

I hate to say it, but v3 beta 1 was kind of bad. I really wanted something fresh. That just wasn't what we got with v3 beta 1. The ideas were there, just the delivery was poor. So this is what I plan on doing. What I want to do, and I would LOVE to hear feedback from you on this, is to completely scrap the current codebase and move over to the ASP.NET MVC framework. I am seriously in love with ASP.NET MVC. Honestly, it will move development, deployment, and testability along. I am in the preliminary planning stages. Also, for development, I would like to use C# and convert the C# code over to VB. The fact that the original kit was released in both languages made it all the more appealing. With a refreshed codebase, we can make this process much easier on the person converting (probably me :) ).

Also, we will have an extensive service layer that can be extended to use a custom DAL or any form of data storage.

Lastly, the features listed in my last post will go in.

 

So, what do you think? I would LOVE to hear your feedback AS LONG AS IT IS PRODUCTIVE AND WILL BENEFIT THE PROJECT.

 

THANKS FOR YOUR CONTINUED UNDERSTADING CLUBSTARTERKIT COMMUNITY!

35 Comments

  • First off, thanks for the work on CSK.

    Secondly, I used v3b1 for a class reunion project site and other than a few minor issues it worked...that's a good thing.

    Thirdly, I have to admit... not a fan of SubSonic. LINQ is decent but as you said, a better seperation of the DAL would have been a "better" way to go but lets face it, few would REALLY switch it out from whats provided. Those that could, would more than likely write their own portal from scratch, but yeah....a better seperation would be a good idea.

    Lastly.... if you are looking for someone to help, or even take the lead on it, just shoot me a line. I just pushed up another Starter Kit on CodePlex and www.Asp.net (iTracker) and am looking for something else to get my teeth into.

    I'm on the www.asp.net forums (user: Curt_C)

  • I can do database stuff and c# coding but no asp...not proficient enough.

    I'm on the www.asp.net forums (user: danielreber)

  • Hi,

    You are simply creating a hype. The chapter of Club Starter kit is over since long. I don't think, you should simply bring this old issue out of grave.

    If you are really serious than think the new club starter kit with Asp.Net MVC way, with any good ORM available.

    The old technology ( Web Forms ) is not going to attract the developers any more.

    You may ask for opinions about this in your blog, before moving ahead with a dead project.

    Thanks

    Peter mendis

  • Zack,

    Here is an opportunity for you and the ClubStarterKit Community, two offers to help with the project and even an offer to take the lead and relieve you to pursue your other endeavors. I hope you will consider these offers so the community can move on with the project and enjoy the project you started even further. I for one am excited about this, I hope you are.

  • I have to ask jerry, what is your deal? There is no need for you to be hasstling me to push on the project. They offered to help, not take on the whole thing. I refuse to step down at this point. Take it or leave it.

  • I am not sure why you are so defensive towards me Zack. I am not hassling you about leaving the project. You seem not to have the time according to your own posts to carry on with the project and someone else above offered to help or take the lead and take the project to higher levels. So here it is Zack, the chance for you to find the time and desire to advance the great work you have done or if you just do not have the time or the desire let someone else do it. The decision is on your shoulders. There is a great clubstarterkit community waiting out there. We have been waiting for a year now so I don't think you can call me pushing at this point.

  • I have already made my decision. I'm staying, developing, leading, etc. Don't know what more you want. So what if the project is slow, its open source. SubSonic didn't have a release for a year. CSK can be the same.

  • That's great Zack, I certainly hope that you accept the offers of help mentioned in the above posts so the community can look forward to the next release, hopefully in the near future.

  • Zack,

    Being a professional software developer for ~ 15 years with many successful applications, I know the pitfalls with trying to add the 'latest and greatest' to the app. It is usually in eternal beta. The reason why I stated this is because of your statement concerning 'ASP.NET MVC framework'. What is the need for that? Why can't v3 be released using asp.net 2 as it was started that way? After that, v4 can use ASP.NET MVC framework.

    just my thoughts

    Dan

  • Not being a software developer, my main concern is an upgrade path from Version 2 RC1, I love the CSK and have been using it for awhile and have an extensive 1600+ member database with the Southern Arizona Hiking Club.

    I have learned a lot being the club webmaster using the CSK and am looking forward to learning much more. Thank you for this project.

    http://sahcinfo.org

  • @dan

    I know what you are talking about with the "latest and greatest"... it can sometimes fall apart with a large project. But here's my thinking. CSK is currently a serious mess. What it needs is a rewrite. This is something I really only want to do once. I want v3 to be done right. MVC I think is the way to go.

    @jerrydean
    I know, I know. I have promiced upgrade paths in the past. It's fairly hard to ensure that people's schemas are the same as the db that shipped with v2. I'll have to work on that for v3. I think I have some ideas to make it a little smoother.

  • @dan

    I understand your concern. I have thought this through. See MVC isn't really that different from ASP.NET Webforms. Also, MVC is ASP.NET, nothing has changed fundamentally. What I have seen is a progression. People want more. To do this, we have to make this a higher level sample. The fact we are throwing out the SqlDataSource-type page logic is a progression to that point. MVC will really require less effort.

    Other starter kits have taken on a much larger leap toward advanced topics. For example, the Commerce Starter Kit (now called dashCommerce) really morphed into a high-level application fairly quick.

    Don't worry, there's always a communtiy to support learning.

  • So, when are you getting started? School is starting soon so I am not sure how you can do both. Curt_c offered to help or to take over and I offered to help as well.

  • @dan

    I will have blocked out time in school that I can devote to working on CSK. So that's not really much of an issue like it was int he past. Throw me your CodePlex usernames in an email (zowens@eagleenvision.net)

  • Zack - thanks for the update and coming to terms with the sub-par development that's been going on. It was good to see you fess up that Sub Sonic was a disaster. I think we're all happy to see things starting to pick back up. Keep in mind, it seems like you added SubSonic because of the "wow" factor and it failed. It sounds like you may be taking the same approach with MVC. I'd ask you to sit down and write out your goals (near and long term) for CSK and then decide WHY those goals require MVC. Also weigh out the pro's and con's of this type of move. Maybe you'll surprise yourself? Nothing wrong with a little self-analysis.

  • @Matt

    I have thought through my goals for CSK. What I had planned was the delay the MVC stuff for v4. But then I realized v3 beta 1 was sorta bad. I have decided to do a complete rewrite. This is something I don't want to do twice. Because of this, I want to go the MVC route for v3.

  • @Matt

    That was my alternative. But I have made the decision to use MVC for v3. The argument of time doesn't really sway this decision.

  • The arguement of time doesn't sway your decision? I assume this is your first swing at taking software development projects "to market" and customer relations? You've got the entire community (more or less) telling you what they want and you're still blindly driving the project in a direction your community is asking you not to take. Not to be rude, but I have to ask. Did you fail your marketing and economics classes in college? Your previous posts say you want to do v3 right, but your actions tell a different story. What do you need from the community to not embark on this unwise development methodology?

  • @Matt

    No one likes a road block. But I hardly see MVC as a roadblock. I no longer want to work with the current code base. It is an absolute mess. Maybe you should go take a look at it... there's not much that we can salvage. I want to deliver a product worthy of more than a a sample. We have to progress CSK to an elegant piece of code.

    Oh, and please don't post your personal inquires about me on the blog. Bashing can happen in private. Thanks.

  • I for one am glad to hear that work is resuming on the Clubstarterkit...I personally look forward to a V3 final.
    Although, i do hope it is in asp.net2.0 rather than ASPnet MVC, as i am still just learning all this and to have to learn a whole new system to work with in this would nhst simply be frustrating, as it has taken me almost a year now to get my site up and running using ASP.net 2.0, and i still have problems i can't figure out LOL so a whole new set of problems would just be insane for me LOL.

    Can we please remember.... That alot of people that use this Kit, are people like myself, we don't know code, we don't ubderstand explanations of fixes unless in layman terms, and we are usually self taught like myself. Maybe we could have a more "simple" user freindly enviroment of fixes, explanations, etc.

  • I for one am glad to hear that work is resuming on the Clubstarterkit...I personally look forward to a V3 final.
    Although, i do hope it is in asp.net2.0 rather than ASPnet MVC, as i am still just learning all this and to have to learn a whole new system to work with in this would nhst simply be frustrating, as it has taken me almost a year now to get my site up and running using ASP.net 2.0, and i still have problems i can't figure out LOL so a whole new set of problems would just be insane for me LOL.

    Can we please remember.... That alot of people that use this Kit, are people like myself, we don't know code, we don't ubderstand explanations of fixes unless in layman terms, and we are usually self taught like myself. Maybe we could have a more "simple" user freindly enviroment of fixes, explanations, etc.

  • @Dub.Survivor

    I don't think I've made myself clear I AM NOT TURNING OVER CSK OR ANY PART OF IT TO ANYONE. That clearer? It would be opimal for everyone to have 2 code bases. But we can't maintain 2 code bases... that just doesn't make sense to go when we can be focusing on a single code base.

    Another thing is this notion of MVC being SO different from Webforms. Come on guys, its still ASP.NET. The only difference is your have a controller (a class outside the codebehind) that sends data to the View (the ASPX page). There really isn't a lot of magic that goes on behind the scene. CSK is, and always has been, a sample. We can't just do the same old stuff. I think by going the MVC route, we will be setting ourselves up for a cleaner and better coding future.

    I think a lot of the resistance to MVC is a misunderstanding of the goals that MVC strives to achieve. ASP.NET MVC is perfect for projects that need simple data transactions. CSK has simple objects (Events, News, Forum Threads, etc) and would perform on the MVC platform.

  • @Dub.Survivor

    The "we" is me. I am not handing the codebase off to anyone else. It's not like it won't be supported or no exist, it just wont be developed further. Honestly, it is not a very flexible code base to move forward with. That's exactly why we are doing a rewrite.

    With v3 beta 1, I wanted to really rethink how the code worked. What I should have done is done the rewrite then and there.

    I'm not forking CSK off. That's not the best option.

  • Not handing over CSK3 isn't the best option? For who?

  • @Matt

    Me. The community. Doesn't matter. It's my choice to make.

  • Although it would be a lot more work, perhaps those interested in the CSK in another format other then what Zack proposes could start with the original Microsoft CSK and develop it in another direction. No toes stepped on and see what comes of it. Just my opinion.

  • I have a compromise. the main CSK project will go MVC. We will support the v2 branch and make incremental code changes, security updates, etc. HOWEVER, if anyone wants to fork a project on the v2 code base, you are permitted to do so by the license agreement.

  • Zack - forgive my ignorance. We're can I review the "license agreement" for v2 and v3b1? Thanks

  • @Matt

    You can view the licesnse here (http://www.codeplex.com/ClubStarterKit/license) it is one of the Microsoft Open source licenses.

  • @Matt

    Sure does. I said you could fork it didn't i...?

  • Are there any progress reports concerning the project or projects by anyone that they would like to share and bring us up to speed?

    Thank you

  • Abandoned again?

  • Thanks Zack. ClubStarterKit is a very good web application for the web development study. some of the parts even are better than Microsoft tutorial materials.

  • Thanks Zack for CSK, any departure date?

  • Sad but true, this project has been totally abandoned by Zack, I hoped that someone out there would jump in and continue to develop it.

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